[Oh my GOD. It takes a second or two, but Tim can place network pictures and names to their faces. Mostly.]
Even the department is compromised. But it's not a person. It has to be technology. What do you have in that room besides each other and your own tech? This all reads too much like a concealed threat. "We're watching you," a la 1984.
It's the 'our own tech' part that I think you have the right track on. We do have our own internal cameras throughout the building. Is it really a threat, though? What could they possibly not want us doing? They haven't stopped us from waltzing into their own damn building any time we please. It's more of an attempt to make us feel more trapped. 'Yes, we see what you're doing, and we don't care.' Jim's on an ego trip.
It isn't a "you should stay away" or even a "you're doing something bad." It's showing us that they have complete control. Of our lives! Our private, personal lives. We can't hide anything, and showing us the pictures is a way to prove it.
[Togusa hesitates, and then mentally kicks himself for not picking up on it sooner. This has actually gotten to Tim, the guy who usually prefers to keep his cards closer to his chest, and throws in a little cloak-and-dagger in his day-to-day out of- what? So far, Togusa has just chalked it up to old-fashioned paranoia.
But, no, he does it for an illusion of control. Which this latest change has just shattered. So. Okay. Fix it.]
They can play all the games they like with memories and deliveries, and it doesn't change who you and I are. It doesn't.
They want you to think they have control so that you'll stop trying. They did this to throw you off your stride. You and Yoon-sung, and everybody else who is actually trying to fix this mess instead of sit and placidly accept it.
[Tim frowns at the screen. He hadn't exactly considered ceasing his attempts. He's not dissuaded, just worried.
Togusa doesn't consider wrongly. There's something about a lack of control against something with a lot of control that keeps Tim bristled at all corners.
They're confident in their security. They don't think anyone will make leeway. So they're taunting with the photos. "Try us." But if someone actually gets in, their funny business could go down the drain quick.
You're worried that, for all they're managing to do to us, this is still just them messing around. That as soon as we start to make real progress, we'll see what they're really capable of.
[A legitimate concern, and Togusa immediately jumps to the greater concern that Retrospec might not lash back out at Togusa and Tim, personally, but at everyone.]
If the other option is to do nothing, then, that's not happening. But we need to be aware of the risks.
Things will keep changing. Things they'll do. Does changing who we are really mean we're the same people as before? Isn't that what change is?
[He's Tim. Feels... normal. Normal family, normal name, normal life. But it's stable, what he knows. Get up, go to class, be smart enough to find a way around technology. There was never any giant conspiracy theories. Nothing that couldn't be explained by logic. Now...
Who really is Tim? Will he stop being Tim if Retrospec starts messing more with everything.]
Then I suppose it's up to them to decide what the changes that we experience mean. We keep changing every day. If the things you see feel more true to you than what you know about yourself? Then it's still within your power to change your behavior to match it. Your power, not Retrospec's.
If the current top line on the betting pool turns out to be right, Togusa suddenly remembers he was a feudal samurai. I still get to choose what I do with that information.
But if you were looking for a good impetus to change your life? This might be what you were waiting for.
I'm glad you're optimistic about being told you may not be who you think you are. The rest of us are probably going to need intensive therapy. The saying isn't "ignorance is bliss" for nothing, Togusa.
[WOW, LOOK, TOGUSA. HE WANTS TO KNOW EVERYTHING EXCEPT who he use to be. It fucks with him too hard.]
Why? What's that supposed to mean? We don't even know if what they are giving us is a lie or the truth. Being told we're a baker or a crazy cat lady is one thing. But what if they try to make you believe you're actually a depressed and homicidal maniac? What if they say you've killed fifty people? You extorted and embezzled tons of money from the already poor public?
But have you done those things? Even if they say you did, even if you have the memory of doing it? Did you harm anyone? Is there anyone in this life that is hurt or dead?
The concept that the sins of our ancestors or our past lives follow us is an encouragement to do well in this life, to minimize the harm that you do. It's not meant to turn into an ever-growing burden of karmic guilt that no man could ever possibly carry.
No matter how much proof Retrospec puts before you, then you cling to what you know to be true. And if you believe it? Then the real strength is finding a way to forgive your past self for it.
You are still you. No matter how the physical form or memories change.
[The words are only partially comforting. Not because Togusa is shit at saying the right things, but that Tim is shit at accepting them.
There's so much made-up honor riding on his shoulders: scholarships, good grades, perfect attendance, extracurriculars--the idea he tarnished such fleeting things that are now intensely important is a travesty.]
People don't know who they are without the past.
[Doesn't the past make you who you are now? he thinks.]
Other people may not forgive you for your past either. And what if Retrospec broadcast it to the entire city? Especially if it's lies. It could hurt someone.
Forget the ancestors, and social context, then. Are you still who you are in a vacuum?
Without other people telling you who you are, there is still a piece of the individual that remains in spite of all of that. We keep speaking of the shared unconscious, that knowledge of humanity that flows between everyone. And the possibility that Retrospec is manipulating that, in order to change how everyone sees the world.
But there is still a part of you that they can't touch. These new memories that you're seeing are just that. They're new. Layered on top of what you already know to be true about yourself. Ghost, soul, true self, whatever you want to call it, they still can't touch that.
No matter how loud they say their lies about you. Those who know you well will know the difference.
[It takes Tim a little while to respond. Stepping back for a second, he realizes how ridiculous he (thinks he's) acting.
Is he still Tim in a vacuum?]
Theoretically, I'm not Tim in a vacuum if there's nothing to judge my existence against. How am I Tim if there's no outside stimuli? Not to blow holes in your ship, Officer Togusa.
[But he thinks about Conner, his friend. Those who know you well will know the difference. Would Conner still know he's Tim, no matter what Retrospec says?]
Are you trying to say we shouldn't stop Retrospec from divvying out information, even if it's a lie?
Hell no! These assholes have crossed every line imaginable, and we're stopping them. Period. Handing out information and weapons and messing with people's heads? No, they get stopped.
But part of the job is to help the people affected before we can put a hard stop to it all.
[Answering his questions in reverse order because hell no. The only thing more ridiculous than what Retrospec is doing is the idea that Togusa wouldn't do his job.]
There's a couple of ways we can look at the question of Tim in a vacuum. What are the internal pieces of yourself that you've never told to anyone? You can debate whether you are your social self or you are your internal self, or whether you are the interaction between these two concepts. But whatever piece of it makes up more of your sense of self? You can't deny that there is a part of you that is entirely removed from anyone else.
[Oh. Thank God. Tim is relieved in the sense that Togusa continues to be on board trying to stop Retrospec regardless.
Help the people affected by it. Okay. The longer this continues, the less he considers Taking Down the Corporation and more Altruistically Available.]
Just checking.
[Tim at the core seemed initially to be a boy zooming straight into college for career reasons. Because it was expected of him. Because he was bored with the monotony of excelling.
Further, a drive, insatiable. A desire to mean something. To be important, intellectually. To be shit with friends because he's embarrassed by his inability to Social correctly.
There's something missing, something that makes his brain hurt just behind his eye, in the socket, sharp and aching. Wanting to go home when he touched the tubing in the building.
But it's all wrong. The stairs were too wide, too elaborate. Just a glimpse of it. The foyer in the front too open.
He tried to forget it like a dream, and yet, he thinks about it again when trying to think of himself.]
How are we supposed to know? If we're in a vacuum, how do we even know we exist at all?
[Going at it too logical.]
I get what you're saying. I just don't know if it's possible when some random corporation altering everything.
[While the part of this equation that they have more direct control over is how they react to what Retrospec is doing, Togusa is completely not on board with letting them do whatever they like. He remains determined to do his job. But maybe the reason he is so driven now is because he is waiting for a similar crisis to come to him, that Tim is struggling with. Will he still be so confident when he starts to remember?]
This isn't something that we're just all going to be able to overcome at once. Retrospec's game is to get us to keep questioning ourselves and each other.
So, keep something. One thing that you know to be true about yourself, that even they can't take away. And hold on to that.
Even if, like you suggested earlier, you decide that you like this version of yourself that Retrospec is telling you about? There's still something that you can keep to yourself, so you know it's your choice to change your behavior, and not their influence.
So where do we go from here? Send out some kind of PSA over the network about "holding onto yourself"? Are there even any decent therapists in this city? Everyone is still going to be worried about losing themselves.
[Or remembering.
Tim thinks about the Titans. Teen Titans. He doesn't know what the hell it means. Just a group of them. Why?]
Did you get anything yet? Be honest. About who you think you are.
[Wellllll fuck, Togusa just can't quite bring himself to lie about this when he's asked directly. Especially while Tim is in the middle of his own crisis.]
Mental? Not a thing. No memories out of place. No sudden flashes like other people have been describing.
Just a scar from a bullet wound to the chest, and a gun from Japan in the mail.
No memory of the gun, and I've never been shot.
It could mean anything. I'm a cop, I could have been shot in the line of duty. Do I sit here and worry about whether I broke the law in a past life?
[Well okay YES, he IS, and it's all your fault, Tim, but he isn't going to say that right now.]
Or do I keep reminding myself of what I know to be true?
[A scar and a gun. But does that mean Togusa is an officer of the Law, or a criminal yakuza?]
Okay, hear me out: Curing psychological ailments with memory altering is one thing. But if these are false, how do you know people won't change by accepting them?
What I said about being a serial killer. Maybe they're not. But what if they feel like it's a part of them that was missing? What if they accept it and become what they've been told? A killing machine, suicidal, hell they could jump off a building thinking they could fly.
But you said you had a scar? That's physical. It doesn't make any sense.
[Togusa has to lean back in his chair and think about Tim's idea a lot. What Retrospec is offering is a chance to remake yourself, if you accept what they say. But it is an affront to people who already are comfortable with who they are. Togusa can handle it. At least he thinks that he can.]
[But what if?]
Maybe that's why they're keeping tabs on us. They're behind the memories that we're regaining, or at least they can track them. But that's why we can't get rid of the application, why we can't shake the surveilance.
What if it's to keep everybody else safe from us?
We can't depend on Retrospec, but, damnit, you're right. This goes even beyond just stopping what they're doing, but undoing the damage that they're up to. If we can be changed, we can be changed back.
Okay, so we're some kind of weird and messed up Freudian experiment. Great. Are You really You when it's all said and done, the next hit late-night show.
What do you think Retrospec has the ability to do if one of us goes bonkers?
no subject
Date: 2017-05-03 03:10 pm (UTC)[So basically he's figuring he will; something entirely embarrassing, or worse.]
A friend of mine did.
Did you?
no subject
Date: 2017-05-03 03:34 pm (UTC)[Enclosed is a photo of the entire RPD bullpen in their weekly meeting. Togusa, Sakakura, Izunia, and Lou can all be spotted from behind.]
no subject
Date: 2017-05-03 06:59 pm (UTC)Even the department is compromised.
But it's not a person. It has to be technology.
What do you have in that room besides each other and your own tech?
This all reads too much like a concealed threat. "We're watching you," a la 1984.
no subject
Date: 2017-05-03 08:53 pm (UTC)Is it really a threat, though? What could they possibly not want us doing? They haven't stopped us from waltzing into their own damn building any time we please.
It's more of an attempt to make us feel more trapped. 'Yes, we see what you're doing, and we don't care.'
Jim's on an ego trip.
no subject
Date: 2017-05-03 09:15 pm (UTC)It's showing us that they have complete control. Of our lives!
Our private, personal lives.
We can't hide anything, and showing us the pictures is a way to prove it.
no subject
Date: 2017-05-03 10:50 pm (UTC)But, no, he does it for an illusion of control. Which this latest change has just shattered. So. Okay. Fix it.]
They can play all the games they like with memories and deliveries, and it doesn't change who you and I are. It doesn't.
They want you to think they have control so that you'll stop trying. They did this to throw you off your stride. You and Yoon-sung, and everybody else who is actually trying to fix this mess instead of sit and placidly accept it.
So don't stop.
no subject
Date: 2017-05-04 01:31 pm (UTC)Togusa doesn't consider wrongly. There's something about a lack of control against something with a lot of control that keeps Tim bristled at all corners.
They're confident in their security. They don't think anyone will make leeway.
So they're taunting with the photos. "Try us."
But if someone actually gets in, their funny business could go down the drain quick.
no subject
Date: 2017-05-04 01:53 pm (UTC)That as soon as we start to make real progress, we'll see what they're really capable of.
[A legitimate concern, and Togusa immediately jumps to the greater concern that Retrospec might not lash back out at Togusa and Tim, personally, but at everyone.]
If the other option is to do nothing, then, that's not happening. But we need to be aware of the risks.
no subject
Date: 2017-05-04 03:16 pm (UTC)Does changing who we are really mean we're the same people as before?
Isn't that what change is?
[He's Tim. Feels... normal. Normal family, normal name, normal life. But it's stable, what he knows. Get up, go to class, be smart enough to find a way around technology. There was never any giant conspiracy theories. Nothing that couldn't be explained by logic. Now...
Who really is Tim? Will he stop being Tim if Retrospec starts messing more with everything.]
What if someone does want to change?
no subject
Date: 2017-05-04 04:03 pm (UTC)If the current top line on the betting pool turns out to be right, Togusa suddenly remembers he was a feudal samurai. I still get to choose what I do with that information.
But if you were looking for a good impetus to change your life? This might be what you were waiting for.
no subject
Date: 2017-05-05 04:05 pm (UTC)The rest of us are probably going to need intensive therapy.
The saying isn't "ignorance is bliss" for nothing, Togusa.
no subject
Date: 2017-05-05 04:13 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2017-05-05 04:39 pm (UTC)Why? What's that supposed to mean?
We don't even know if what they are giving us is a lie or the truth.
Being told we're a baker or a crazy cat lady is one thing.
But what if they try to make you believe you're actually a depressed and homicidal maniac?
What if they say you've killed fifty people?
You extorted and embezzled tons of money from the already poor public?
no subject
Date: 2017-05-06 04:14 pm (UTC)The concept that the sins of our ancestors or our past lives follow us is an encouragement to do well in this life, to minimize the harm that you do. It's not meant to turn into an ever-growing burden of karmic guilt that no man could ever possibly carry.
No matter how much proof Retrospec puts before you, then you cling to what you know to be true. And if you believe it? Then the real strength is finding a way to forgive your past self for it.
You are still you. No matter how the physical form or memories change.
no subject
Date: 2017-05-09 01:55 pm (UTC)There's so much made-up honor riding on his shoulders: scholarships, good grades, perfect attendance, extracurriculars--the idea he tarnished such fleeting things that are now intensely important is a travesty.]
People don't know who they are without the past.
[Doesn't the past make you who you are now? he thinks.]
Other people may not forgive you for your past either.
And what if Retrospec broadcast it to the entire city?
Especially if it's lies. It could hurt someone.
no subject
Date: 2017-05-09 02:11 pm (UTC)Without other people telling you who you are, there is still a piece of the individual that remains in spite of all of that. We keep speaking of the shared unconscious, that knowledge of humanity that flows between everyone. And the possibility that Retrospec is manipulating that, in order to change how everyone sees the world.
But there is still a part of you that they can't touch. These new memories that you're seeing are just that. They're new. Layered on top of what you already know to be true about yourself. Ghost, soul, true self, whatever you want to call it, they still can't touch that.
No matter how loud they say their lies about you. Those who know you well will know the difference.
no subject
Date: 2017-05-09 02:24 pm (UTC)Is he still Tim in a vacuum?]
Theoretically, I'm not Tim in a vacuum if there's nothing to judge my existence against.
How am I Tim if there's no outside stimuli?
Not to blow holes in your ship, Officer Togusa.
[But he thinks about Conner, his friend. Those who know you well will know the difference. Would Conner still know he's Tim, no matter what Retrospec says?]
Are you trying to say we shouldn't stop Retrospec from divvying out information, even if it's a lie?
no subject
Date: 2017-05-09 02:30 pm (UTC)But part of the job is to help the people affected before we can put a hard stop to it all.
[Answering his questions in reverse order because hell no. The only thing more ridiculous than what Retrospec is doing is the idea that Togusa wouldn't do his job.]
There's a couple of ways we can look at the question of Tim in a vacuum. What are the internal pieces of yourself that you've never told to anyone? You can debate whether you are your social self or you are your internal self, or whether you are the interaction between these two concepts. But whatever piece of it makes up more of your sense of self? You can't deny that there is a part of you that is entirely removed from anyone else.
That last part of individuality.
no subject
Date: 2017-05-09 02:56 pm (UTC)Help the people affected by it. Okay. The longer this continues, the less he considers Taking Down the Corporation and more Altruistically Available.]
Just checking.
[Tim at the core seemed initially to be a boy zooming straight into college for career reasons. Because it was expected of him. Because he was bored with the monotony of excelling.
Further, a drive, insatiable. A desire to mean something. To be important, intellectually. To be shit with friends because he's embarrassed by his inability to Social correctly.
There's something missing, something that makes his brain hurt just behind his eye, in the socket, sharp and aching. Wanting to go home when he touched the tubing in the building.
But it's all wrong. The stairs were too wide, too elaborate. Just a glimpse of it. The foyer in the front too open.
He tried to forget it like a dream, and yet, he thinks about it again when trying to think of himself.]
How are we supposed to know?
If we're in a vacuum, how do we even know we exist at all?
[Going at it too logical.]
I get what you're saying.
I just don't know if it's possible when some random corporation altering everything.
no subject
Date: 2017-05-09 03:14 pm (UTC)This isn't something that we're just all going to be able to overcome at once. Retrospec's game is to get us to keep questioning ourselves and each other.
So, keep something. One thing that you know to be true about yourself, that even they can't take away. And hold on to that.
Even if, like you suggested earlier, you decide that you like this version of yourself that Retrospec is telling you about? There's still something that you can keep to yourself, so you know it's your choice to change your behavior, and not their influence.
no subject
Date: 2017-05-09 03:50 pm (UTC)Send out some kind of PSA over the network about "holding onto yourself"?
Are there even any decent therapists in this city?
Everyone is still going to be worried about losing themselves.
[Or remembering.
Tim thinks about the Titans. Teen Titans. He doesn't know what the hell it means. Just a group of them. Why?]
Did you get anything yet? Be honest.
About who you think you are.
no subject
Date: 2017-05-09 03:57 pm (UTC)Mental? Not a thing. No memories out of place. No sudden flashes like other people have been describing.
Just a scar from a bullet wound to the chest, and a gun from Japan in the mail.
No memory of the gun, and I've never been shot.
It could mean anything. I'm a cop, I could have been shot in the line of duty. Do I sit here and worry about whether I broke the law in a past life?
[Well okay YES, he IS, and it's all your fault, Tim, but he isn't going to say that right now.]
Or do I keep reminding myself of what I know to be true?
no subject
Date: 2017-05-09 04:32 pm (UTC)Okay, hear me out:
Curing psychological ailments with memory altering is one thing.
But if these are false, how do you know people won't change by accepting them?
What I said about being a serial killer. Maybe they're not. But what if they feel like it's a part of them that was missing? What if they accept it and become what they've been told? A killing machine, suicidal, hell they could jump off a building thinking they could fly.
But you said you had a scar? That's physical. It doesn't make any sense.
no subject
Date: 2017-05-09 04:46 pm (UTC)[But what if?]
Maybe that's why they're keeping tabs on us. They're behind the memories that we're regaining, or at least they can track them. But that's why we can't get rid of the application, why we can't shake the surveilance.
What if it's to keep everybody else safe from us?
We can't depend on Retrospec, but, damnit, you're right. This goes even beyond just stopping what they're doing, but undoing the damage that they're up to. If we can be changed, we can be changed back.
no subject
Date: 2017-05-09 04:55 pm (UTC)Great.
Are You really You when it's all said and done, the next hit late-night show.
What do you think Retrospec has the ability to do if one of us goes bonkers?
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From: